Ozan Uysal on AI decisions made out of FOMO

Yes, greetings everyone. Hello. How are you doing? As if they had never spoken. We're fine . Let's just say we're trying to be good . As we discussed earlier, the agenda is busy as usual, like the usual hours . It seems there will never be a time when the country is not in a state of inactivity. I feel like it's in the near future, or even the distant future.

So, there's always something new coming up . Not anymore . As you said before, I mean, I remember my childhood too. Those who lived through the 90s did n't have a more eventful life either. I mean, the issues in this region never seem to end. But now, of course, perhaps partly due to the spread of the internet and mobile technologies, we are constantly involved in everything .

Huh. I mean, I'm not saying this to sound bad, but bombs are falling on Tehran, thank God. I'm receiving messages on my phone. It's as if I threw it. So we're living in something incredible. I'd rather call it the age of information . Whatever you want to call it. It's like information just bursts out at you. That's impossible. So, of course, let 's say our perceptions are faster, at least regarding the agenda.

Exactly. I think we got straight to the point on that side, but of course, it has its own set of tiring aspects. That information that's flowing in isn't generally very positive . So you don't receive any news like that. You're not actually getting information about a positive event that happened in Malaysia. So every piece of information that reaches you becomes another giant, even more negative... That, in my opinion, has its own unique tiring aspect.

I even talked to him and I'm leaving, but... I was talking to a friend the other day. Now, when they're going to work on a project with a company like Netflix, with a producer—actually a production company—and Netflix, of course, does very detailed research to decide on its new projects . And they apparently want to say something like, if you start mentioning anything bad in the project, for example, if there's something evil in a series, you immediately start losing users.

So, at that point, the audience starts to leave and walk away. I think people's tolerance for negativity is extremely minimal. So they wanted more lightweight, lighthearted, and upbeat series so that people would watch them a bit more. Or maybe we're talking about the same thing, but if I remember correctly, whose was it? Was it M Damon's? Recently, another interview of his came out, again about Netflix content.

Huh. He says, "Back then, we'd give a little bit of the main topic and then wrap it up at the end." You know how people used to watch screenplays, series, movies, for an hour and a half, two hours, whatever it was? Now, he says, the focus times have dropped so much that we have to show the same story three times so that the audience doesn't lose focus.

It was as if they were trying to keep people engaged by constantly reminding them of a movie about this, or another movie about that, repeatedly showing the plot from the beginning every minute . He had an interview. He became very interested in me afterwards. Exactly. So, as you said, things are changing, of course, everything is changing. With so many stimuli, attention spans inevitably decrease. I personally suffer from this a great deal.

So, here's something he's explaining: even in meetings, I'm having trouble concentrating and focusing anymore. Something comes in from WhatsApp, something comes in from email, the phone rings. It just never ends. It never ends. You know, when you're online, in a way—and by online I mean being connected, maybe that's a more accurate way to put it. We shouldn't just think of it as being connected to the internet .

The warnings never end. A lot has happened. You know, e-commerce companies are throwing them away, telecommunications companies are throwing them away. Do you understand? The text message senders are sending them. Everyone. Yes. Financiers are talking about it, there's a campaign going on, here are the news reports. This happened, that happened, and so on. They're calling their friend on WhatsApp, sending memes, posting something, trying to make you laugh, and so on.

After that, things got really strange. After that, I was also very upset about something else. You know, one thing leads to another. You can wrap up the topic, but I'm leaving now, wherever this conversation takes me. Continue . After that, the fact that WhatsApp was integrated into the business world really devastated me. I remember him. I don't remember how it happened. That happened about 78 years ago, when they started creating work groups on WhatsApp.

We're finished right there, I'm telling you. That really happened. If you ask me, there used to be an unwritten rule like that. You know, work-related things aren't usually sent to someone's phone like that. There was something like, "Exactly," if it wasn't very close. An email will be sent. Ah, age! Exactly. You know, they send emails or... what's that old thing about Microsoft? I don't know much about the Microsoft world, but they have these links or something like that.

Or, like our thing in the startup world, there's Slack. You know SLE better. That's where the conversations took place. Someone created that first group on WhatsApp so we could make quick work-related decisions there. Honesty has been compromised there. Things got very bad for everyone after that. I don't know. He met with them. I thought you were going to talk about... that thing. from the business management API and stuff, like the WhatsApp thing, my head just kept going in that direction.

Oh no, not until we get there. On the contrary, quite the opposite as well. Exactly. Conversely, I think you meant Teams for Microsoft as well. Team Teams, and so on. It's been about 15 years since I worked in a corporate environment, and that was the name of the link back then. He was there too. I... I'm going to say something. Oh, and by the way, the topic is heading in a really interesting direction.

We haven't even had a chance to start the introduction yet, but I think we can do one right away if you'd like. Like Netflix streaming, you now need to log in every 15 minutes. If this needs to be discussed, you'll repeat it in 15 minutes. See, that's what we were talking about. And even now, I didn't even make that joke a moment ago . Now, when the display goes blank, it's like you're connecting via 660 or something.

Well, even at Netflix, the cinematographers have done so much with filmmaking that it's like they used to shoot with red cameras . There were cinematographers and stuff like that. Now that people are watching on their phones, they've started paying less attention to the darkness or other things. That's why I thought, let me do something there. Well, not much like that happened. That's really bad, be careful. Okay, I'm paying attention, but your focus is lacking, but at least let something be of good quality.

Anyway, we'll get back to the topic. Now, our guest this week is Ozan Uysal, from the Epsent team. Hey Ozan, greetings! How are you? I'm fine, thank you. You are fine too. We are all fine, God willing. So, we're starting the day's, or rather the week's, negative news, but... well, we've already done it . Well, we're not surprised, we're used to it. How's it going? How are you all doing?

Well, things are just going through the motions, we actually got to the point. We got into it too quickly, as you said, so let's just say we 're trying to do well . You know how there's that saying, "We haven't fallen, but we're not exactly standing either," well, everyone around us is like that right now, but we haven't fallen. well, I haven't fallen, I'm still standing here in italics, another phrase.

That's also true. That's right, that's right. That's nice too. Very good. So Micha, what are you doing, what are you working on, so that the viewers, the listeners, let's say, know about it? Of course, of course. We actually talked about that a little bit too. So, I haven't worked in a corporate environment for 15 years. That corporate firm was Turkcell. After that, I started my first career at Turkcell.

Later in this endeavor, TÜBİTAK was one of the first recipients of the 1512 Entrepreneurship Fund, now known as Big. We are probably one of the few companies still alive from that era. We're down to 34 companies, and TÜBİTAK (the Scientific and Technological Research Council of Turkey) kindly calls us every year. And sometimes, with a little fear, they ask if we're dead or alive, and when we say we're still going on, they're very happy, bless them.

Anyway, since that time, we've focused on the mobile application field, especially developing applications for e-commerce . We've had quite a few projects, especially regarding the transition of retailers to e-commerce channels. You know, we've had many customers. I'm sure we've worked with at least 15 of the top 20 retailers in Türkiye. We are still working with many of them. For example, I've been in a relationship with the blue breed for almost 10 years now .

Likewise, with Boyner Group and Bayman, although they separated about 56 years ago, we still work with them and still get a lot of business from them. Especially now that the economy is under pressure, let's say some retailers haven't fully invested here yet – it's hard to believe, but they exist. So they still come with a perspective like, "How is this guy selling it?" They come to us, or to our rivals, you know.

Investments in this area are still ongoing. Well, it's not like it used to be, of course. So, especially with the worsening of the economic situation, let's say, let's talk more generally... The old budgets are gone. They naturally have difficulty making investments or decisions . We see that in the market too. So you're talking to a company, you're having a meeting with them. But then, the decision is made after six months , or after a year .

The project gets shelved, put in the freezer, and then comes back to you. Then they talk about it again, and something else happens. Such a thing exists. I hear that a lot, by the way. I'm not just talking about this with us, but with friends from various sectors. So, those outside of software and our IT industry also have the same problems. Sometimes it's like talking to a void .

So it's kind of like... in a job . You know, like when we throw a bottle into the sea . Some projects make you wonder if they'll ever come back. Oh, he's coming, but it's not like he has any particular appetite, for some reason. So everyone is aware of it. If you ask me, or rather, what I see in the current market, people need to undertake a project.

Because ultimately, Türkiye is a very dynamic country. So, as far as I know, the population is around 100 million . The latest official figures are around 90 million, but assuming it's progressing further, it's a country of 100 million, and its income is good; it has caught up with Spain, and there are even projections that it will surpass it . We're talking about something that has caught a European Union country like Spain in the middle of a crisis .

How can I put it? We are talking about a country that is not a member of any union. She accomplished all this on her own. Therefore, Türkiye is not just any country. It's not like we can say, "Let's take a two-year break from a business, not invest, not do anything, just be content with what we sell." When you cut back on investment, you inevitably fall behind. This applies to everything, whether it's digital, regular business, operations, or any unit.

But on the other hand, they're also afraid. I won't mention brand names or company names here, but when I spoke with CFOs, they were frankly a bit hesitant to invest. Their hands aren't as free to move around as they used to be. So, they're trying to find middle ground . So, if I go back to Absent, we've also been involved in the finance sector for the last 5 years or so .

You know, we created an alternative sector for ourselves and did something there. So, we exported it abroad. However, as you know, the dollar exchange rates and the excessive cost of living in Türkiye, especially in the software and development power supply sectors, are unfortunately hindering our progress. And then, this year, especially in the e-commerce sector, where we provide the link between retail and e-commerce, we are developing various white-label products to reduce costs and make it easier for companies to transition to digital .

We improved it. We'll even be launching one this month. Especially for companies that use or are considering using Shopify. So, that's how we're going, as I said. Then we move on. Life goes on . And it doesn't stop in the digital sector. There's always something new to do for fun. There is now a craze for artificial intelligence . You know, that's something that could go on and on, it would never end anyway .

People can't stop talking about it. But after that, unfortunately, it's a bit... well, you know. Well, at least ever since it came out, they've been selling through Homo, maybe, but I think they're selling it the wrong way. So, in that sense, it's being sold incorrectly. So, it's like they're going to kill you, you're finished, you had no chance, and that's how E.'s approach goes. But actually, that kind of world doesn't exist .

So when you look at the adaptation data and all that, out of 8 billion people in the world, only 30 million have used it. So, AI doesn't really exist yet, I mean, yes, there are serious investments, serious things being done, but there are countries without internet, without electricity, and you do n't even need to look that far. If you look a little to our south—I won't even mention the country name, just take a map and look— No, I mean, there's no need to go to places like Africa or anything like that .

So, I'm actually very much against the idea of explaining A through the lens of FOMO. Oh, you know, like, a friend, okay? It's like, when the train was invented, the carriage drivers didn't die out, you know what I mean? They changed shape, but people continued to live . There's no point in putting people in such a "we're dead, we're finished, we're ruined" kind of mood. Then, anyway, I left quickly.

No, no, I mean, you 've talked about a lot of things, honestly, but if we go into what you said last, for example, in our sector too, there are a lot of these things right now. Since we are involved in the analytics and data measurement side of things, there are now tools that measure incoming traffic, AI traffic, called agentic AI or AI analytics, and so on. Now, for example, this is on the rise, but I think people sometimes fail to grasp this.

It's being treated as if 90% of the world is taking action and making purchases agentically through chat GPT, and we absolutely need analytics for all of that . Of course, people ask questions, especially the investment, VC, and other aspects of the business, and they're competing here, but then we look at our clients' general traffic reports, at a macro level, and we're still talking about traffic coming from below 45%.

But if you look at the number of tools, the number of cases people have created, it's being presented as if it's a solution that takes that company to the next level, and as you said, it's completely FOMO. It's getting to the point where we're measuring our AI , are you measuring your AI? I think this also touches on what you said at the beginning. So people are also very attached to the idea that we should do something.

So, both in terms of career and being able to receive bonuses, and for the company to survive, there's definitely this constant worry on that side: "We need to do a project or we'll be ruined, we'll fall behind," I think. And this continues to increase . Most people are acting on FOMO . I see it, for example, in e-commerce, since we are also involved in e-commerce. Then you said something very good.

It's like, everyone's talking about AI right now, but they're saying, "Hold on, guys, really, integrate it into the existing system first." We see at least one thing, for example, the simplest thing, the chatpot story; even chatpots are rule-based, and most companies periodically check their flows and processes. I'm checking to see what happened and what's going on. Right away, he says to me, "What is that?" Then you choose, this one or this one, this one or this one, this one or this one .

And you're still at that stage. Just calm down . Let's sell something right away. In this business, you know, both sides— Google and Open AI— have announced various protocols for full integration in e-commerce. I've forgotten his name now. I think it was ACP. Anyway, it's not that critical, but Open AI's work, in particular, got a lot of attention. You know, the one that's going to integrate with Shopify, the one that's going to directly suggest products and all that.

It's only just begun in America . For example, if he were to come to Türkiye, there are still problems like that in Türkiye. So, which infrastructure should we choose, how should we proceed, what kind of things should we be, and so on. Exactly. Even companies are creating expectations and demands for us to develop mobile applications. We go to companies and they don't even have an API yet.

The company doesn't have an AP (Application Processor) or anything like that yet. Or, the ready-made product he's using doesn't share data with the outside world. What are you talking about e-moons when these things don't even exist yet? Why don't you first present this properly to the customer, and then explain the conversion rate, a classic concept? As you said, anyone who sees it thinks everyone has Open AI in their pocket and everyone's using it.

So, Apple Intelligence, or whatever it's called, has set up and finished those things on the iPhone, and it's frantically searching for products but can't find them... the launch... okay, but I'm curious, you touched on a good point at the beginning . So, you've actually been in the startup world for many years . Of course, we talked about FOMO, we talked about AI, but when we look at the startup world and founders from 15 years ago or those years ago, are there any differences you see today?

Let me put it this way... And of course, I have a technical background; I'm the founder. Well, that needs to be said too. I used to be an iOS developer. In my previous job, I worked for Turkcell, and we already mentioned their name . Back then, those concepts weren't very well-known yet, so I shifted towards full-stack development. You know, on the backend side, we were developing software using various technologies.

So, we had to access all those databases and whatnot in some way . The yield I'm seeing right now presents a fantastic opportunity. Especially for technical things, for founders. Since then, the cost of the software has dropped significantly. I mean it in this sense . If you're a startup, okay? Or, let's say I mention a brand from day one . Let's call it a trending path. You don't need to approach e-commerce problems like Trendyol does.

So, there aren't 5 million users at the door, or, let's say, scaling problems, or network downtime, or whatever cloud you're using. I keep mentioning brands, but I hope we don't get into any trouble . You know, like, " We'll cut them up, we'll do the cutting." I'm leaving, and then, well, your cloud bill wo n't come to $100,000 or anything like that. Ultimately, it's an MVP that you need to develop as a startup.

So the goal is to reach an MVP, or maybe a POC if you're making a demo. There, you persuade the user, you do this and that, and right now, how should I put it ? So, you can sit down on the weekend and create a chatbot demo, a comprehensive one, with artificial intelligence , rugging, and all that stuff in it. For example, this is something that even as a company, when we go somewhere, it's always difficult for digital companies, and I've been experiencing that for 13 years.

So, if the person you're talking to isn't particularly knowledgeable about the subject or is outside the industry, don't bother explaining anything to them. Because you need to translate something abstract into something concrete and explain it. For example, in your case, it's very difficult to describe someone who isn't involved in the situation. Then, well, you analyze this, and in the analysis, why are you analyzing it? What's that?

You know, like how the data comes in and all that, but right now, the cost of prototyping has dropped so much that after that, I'm like, do you have an idea? It's like when you see something, you just blurt it out and write about it at night, it's unbelievable. Download the Codex and explain it. You know, prepare something really nice, something well-defined . Prepare the document and give it a name.

Which one do you use now, Cloue or Cemil or whatever, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter then. Because they all open up a certain thing, because they open a threshold, let's say, a demo. This is a fantastic feature for startups, especially at very, very low costs. Because it's always startups; we've received many in the last 15 years, and we've supported many of them. Well, we even have a few startups that we're partners in, and they're doing quite well .

Hopefully things will get even better . I remember their main problem is trying to reach an MVP . He's even trying to reach the POC (Proof of Concept). You open the shop in a minimum of 2 months . Because why? So, they want a mobile application, they want a backend, they want something. These things have a cost, or whatever. Even though they aren't very complex problems, there's always this thought: what if it works?

The infrastructure needs to be able to handle it, the system needs to be prepared, and if things go too fast, those problems might just get out of hand. After that, you know, find some senior or senior person, someone who knows how to set up that system but can't due to lack of time or a team, and say, "Uh huh ." After that, you can reach an MVP very quickly with these Aents, which I think is very valuable for startups .

My most fundamental point there is that I 100% agree. I feel like... something like that. I don't know, Berkay, what do you think? Again, you have a more technical right than I do. As the technical aspects of the job become easier, I feel like the other aspects also become more important. So, things used to be much more difficult. So, to actually be able to create the product you have in mind, yes.

You needed to assemble the right team . It took more time. This was actually a barrier. So, I'd say that people who are truly committed to this path, people with the budget, are able to do it. Now that those are gone, there are a lot of tools out there. And I think that leads to something else. Specifically, it's up to the user, which one should I use?

Why should I use product A and not product B, which is very similar ? Or let's say you've created a product that has a really good fit and a really good scale, but now that product is actually very easy to replicate. It has reached a point where someone who can copy your product and do better marketing and sales, and package it better, can become more successful than you .

Because you do n't have that technical advantage as much as you used to. This makes me think about things like that. So where is this all going to end up? Will the skills shift towards a different area ? Is this an advantage for a technical founder in some ways ? On the other hand, a question arises in my mind, at least, whether they should learn skill sets that are not technical at all in order to stay in this competition.

Huh. No. TRUE. But I can honestly predict something. So, as I said, the cost of development will decrease. You know, that thing will fall off too. How can I put it ? In other words, the profits earned will inevitably decrease. Because, you know, it's a bit like, you could think of it as a kind of industrial revolution or developmental revolution that we're experiencing right now. So there are no tailors?

Yes, it still exists. If you want clothes that fit you well, then go to a tailor and have one made. Nobody says anything. I sew them myself, by the way. Okay, so you can plant that too, bro. Is it ok? Look, actually, it's all about how you want to use your time. So, I'm saying, "Hey bro, create a chat template, a template based on the measurements." There's a game called Ghost of Shishima, and the things in it, the Japanese and old samurai shirts, are incredibly nice.

I make things like this for home wear, just for myself. It doesn't matter that it's so bad, but it's so distracting, especially when you're sewing or something. Brother, regarding the technical founding part, I'd like to touch upon a very critical point. For almost the last 6 months or so, most of my time has been spent – after the product reached a certain point, after it passed the APC/MVP phase – as Barış said, a large part of my technical founding part has been spent preparing presentations.

For example, at Figma, I try to think about how we can explain something we've technically developed to people . In the past, for example, yes. The cost of software development for startups has decreased significantly. You can quickly produce an MVP in Codex. You connect it with the cloud and all that, but the point is, the process of conveying something abstract to people, the time it takes to get that abstract concept into their minds with that marketing no-how, has taken a little longer, in my opinion.

So, as that thing decreases, the product emerges. Yes, you got rid of it overnight, but what good does that do? What are you doing? What is the causal relationship of this? The part about how you package and deliver this to the other side will, in my opinion, get worse because of this speed, and people's soft skills are decreasing as a result. At least we come from that corporate hierarchy, that agency culture, so we're somewhat familiar with people .

But now, the new generation is also baffled when someone says, "Yes, I wrote MVP names overnight," and then goes up against Ibinator or gets investment from somewhere. If he doesn't know how to communicate with customers, he's going to fail there. So now you work more with banks, with corporate companies and so on . My question is, with the decrease in the cost of this software, how do you see the difference between face-to-face communication, soft skills, and the founding and technical dilemmas evolving in the future ?

What do you think it will be like? Honestly, I've been thinking about that too. Nothing much will change on that side, by the way. You know how everyone's saying the era of solo founders is coming and all that? I don't think he's coming, okay? Because time is still a problem, you gave that example just now, it was very good. You know, like I sew them myself and all that stuff .

You can sew, but not everyone can or wants to sew. Because at that time, for example, someone else might want to go to the cinema, and someone else might want to read a book. Another person might want to do wood carving, for example. It's all about time management, you know. And then, this also applies to that thing. Ok. No matter how much agents are developing various things, that too takes time and requires concentration.

Meanwhile, nothing has changed. So you still need to know how to set up that system . After that, the process there simply sped up. It's like you 're not typing anything, the computer is typing it automatically. You're acting like the last person in charge . Do you understand? But then, consequently, someone still needs to keep track of things like taxes. Someone needs to follow up with customers at work.

Someone needs to go to presentations, etc., etc. Okay, so you do these things with agents? So, where else can you find companions to walk alongside you? After that, it doesn't matter whether these people are salaried employees or shareholders . Or do you run alone ? Let the business remain at a certain size. Should I just keep doing my own thing around this corner? Of course, that's up to you, but ultimately, as you said, being able to do these things, that ability side of things, is still on the table, and agents, as I said, don't solve that.

So the agent isn't saying that to you. Come and take a look, let me show you around here. If you don't say anything, the man won't say anything. For example, just a moment ago, before I came here with you, I was trying out some code on my own. Or he's completely hallucinated. Oh, sorry, that function wasn't available. He tells me he made it up. Is it ok?

Perky. I said. Me too, I'm trying to experiment with new technologies. "Well," I said, "you shouldn't have made it up, you should have just done something much simpler." And now, Open AI has published a very recent study. huh. Well, it's quite interesting, I mean, that's what they're saying. No matter how advanced it becomes, the system... huh . They published a study suggesting that hallucinations cannot be prevented.

So, technology has advanced so much. These artificial intelligences have reached an incredible level . It seems like there will never be a world without hallucinations. For example, according to that latest study... And that comes down to exactly what you said. Even if you bring everything into an agentic world, or for example, that solo founder you mentioned earlier, or even if Cloud Bot was the first solo founder and so on, there's still a world out there.

I think that's a very good example of that. So, I think it's impossible for a solo artist, or even a duo, to run an entire company and do that for years. Because it's like saying... something. I 'm not going to sleep, I'm not going on vacation. I will not waste any time. Because someone needs to manage those agents . Again, at the end of the day, as you said, there needs to be a control mechanism .

And I think there's an illusion in all this current trend of going faster and faster. So, you think you've done much more work, but when you look at the past, you can see the reality very clearly. So you also see how people who have accomplished an incredible amount of work actually do very little during the day. So, things like how you spend your time more productively, and so on .

We, on the other hand, are doing the exact opposite; in today's world where people are constantly looking at 100 screens, trying to juggle 5 tasks simultaneously, and actually moving towards something with much more minimal output . I also don't think the agents are at a point where we can say, "Ah yes, this is the solution." So it seems they are still lacking in their most critical areas, and it looks like they will continue to lack resources.

Huh. Exactly. I mean, I don't know, of course, artificial intelligence is a huge breakthrough. Regarding hallucinations, well, the basis of these is a technology called Transformers. Then there's that famous article from 2018; if you look at it, you'll see that hallucinations need to change . Now they are constantly building upon that core technology . Or, as you said, that hallucination is already at the root of the problem, so there's nothing you can do about it.

So you can't overcome it even if you want to . I guess what will happen is that someone will write an article or come up with a system, and then everyone will jump on it. After that, I also see something else there, to be honest. I was talking to a friend the other day, and you know, gradually, in these things, initially they focused on big supermodels. So, Open Aaydın or whatever it was called, did some kind of thing.

You know how the Chinese are now moving towards what they call "small language models," and then to micro- level models, like 3GB or 1GB, or even models large enough to work on a phone – models that are, in quotation marks, small but significant – and they're comparing their performance to other things? They are achieving similar, and often even surpassing, success rates with older models like the GPT4 and 4.5.

So, this whole thing is kind of heading in that direction too . So, in this regard, Apple recently announced the M5 processor . Direct elimination has been optimized. So, really, specifically, there were about 20 GPUs, or maybe 20 versus 40 GPUs, in the last processor they announced . I couldn't have an impact because of this war . My attention has drifted a bit towards the war. Then, when you look at it, these are also amazing developments.

So, we wo n't even need the cloud anymore; we'll be able to carry artificial intelligence with us right here on our computers and devices, locally. I've even seen this before; someone recently did something, I think it was an Anatolian company, they directly embedded the microprocessor into the hardware, so there's no need to filter it, it comes directly with microprocessor filtering. So you don't need to open any external connection or anything like that, for example, think of it like this: they put it in your car, and your car directly installs GPT4, okay?

Or you're talking to your car without anything connected, not even internet. So what am I doing? They were chatting like that. For example, you're going to Ankara. I'm just making it up . Or, you know, like, "Hey, turn on the wipers," or "Hey, wipe the windshield," and you're driving along like crazy, talking to each other, and if someone falls out, you're thinking, "Hey, give me a cigarette," and you're driving quite a distance in the car, you know, anyway, there's also the aspect of it, I mean, it's going to become so ingrained in our lives that once it's gone, getting rid of it will be...

Well, how should I put it, they say the genie is out of the lamp, you can't put it back in, it'll be like Pandora's Box is opened. It's unclear where this is going, but they'll probably focus on things like improving optimization, fixing those hallucination issues, and so on . Exactly. I think that, especially when we look at it from the perspective of the startup world, really feels like a new era .

Especially compared to 10-15 years ago, as I said, we are probably in a very different place now. Alright. I'm wondering... Oh, sorry, tell me, tell me . No, no, please, please. Exactly. Berkan brought up a topic. Exactly. Let's not do that. So, you know, I thought I'd try to reverse the topic a little bit. When we usually have guests like Barış, who have strong technical founding skills, we're a little curious about what they do outside of work.

So, your hobbies are all about technology, and startups are stressful, there's FOMO (Fear of Missing Out), you go on LinkedIn and see people who've received millions in investment, etc. Your focus is on team management, providing motivation, and at the same time, the company needs to keep track of invoices, follow traditional processes, develop your technical skills, and also manage family matters and your normal social life. How do you strike a balance?

What are your suggestions? What advice would you give to the young people watching us around here ? I'm saying, I'd like to bring this up now . So, in the classic sense, it's an initiative, okay, we've started something, you know, everyone's so-called dream is to quit their salaried job and jump into something, and then... well, I really agree with that statement. So, that's the story of how we risked working 80 hours a week just to avoid working 40 hours.

That's absolutely true. For example, I always joke that I don't have a Monday phobia because every day is Monday. Like, I worked yesterday, and this morning a client, a company, asked about mobile app design, how it would work, what the process would be like . For example, in the evening we sat down and prepared a presentation. In fact, thankfully, one of my friends from the team also helped.

After that, it's sharp as a razor. For example, to schedule a meeting, they might say, "Wow, you worked so fast, that's great! Let's get together and explain the details." You know, you inevitably have to take this risk . Because this is what happens. Well, think of it like this: when you get on a bus, let's go back to the cars as an example. When you get on an intercity bus, you expect something different, right?

This is the bus I boarded in Istanbul, going to Ankara. So you get on the bus with that assumption, but you don't think about the other thing. They probably put a driver in or something, or maybe they put gas in or something . You shouldn't panic like that. You can sit down and get off, you know, you get on and off, but someone has to manage that whole process, right?

Then, imagine this: for example, the company doesn't care either; people get on the bus from the harem . For example, the bus isn't leaving. Is it ok ? It has no gas, no driver, nothing at all . Do you understand? It's somewhat like that now. Now you're on the side that's organizing it. Unfortunately, I don't have that . It's not like I can just relax today and think, "Well, maybe the projects will work out tomorrow, or a new job will come up," because that's not how it works, inevitably.

Therefore, the responsibility lies with you. And then there are those employees, partners, or people you're responsible to, for example. This includes customers as well . Everyone inevitably expects something from you . That's why it's hard to hold it there. Well, it inevitably becomes difficult to strike those balance stories afterward . And then, when things go wrong, you inevitably have to get up and say, "Excuse me, I won't be working on Sunday."

Yesterday's example perfectly illustrates this point . huh. After that, you inevitably have to run. Young people need to be prepared for these things too . I also wanted to say something else. So, I mean, we got started on some things, but ultimately, I founded a company. So, how should I put it ? I didn't just jump into the market saying I was going to join a startup or do something disruptive .

Or there was a gap there. So what was it? Well, there was a gap in the e-commerce sector regarding mobile applications. We were solely focused on him. We'll do any job. We weren't from the "big brother" family. Let's start a mobile company and develop every mobile app that comes our way. We just said we're doing e-commerce and so on. Later, we added finance as well. So, that's how it went, but anyway, that's just how it was .

What do you mean? It was obvious something like that was going to explode. So, you know, I have a lot of respect for things like that, you know, things like that. Let's say, for example, something becomes trending, or RI Games becomes something else, and it may or may not become a unicorn – it doesn't even have to be a unicorn – but it's about creating something that can truly be considered pioneering and visionary for that period, and getting everyone to accept it.

I have great respect for them. Because it's something real, like an example of an entrepreneurial venture. Well, I wasn't like that. I still see ideas in the market, for example, about establishing companies to develop mobile applications. I'm telling you, don't set it up . Please don't do that. Absolutely do not do it after that. I mean, you'll just starve. The reason is very simple. Because there are many who do it.

There's us, and then there are others. So, I can name about 15 companies like mine. Here's a competitor's table I have, for example. We look at the moon, see what everyone has been up to, what they've accomplished, and so on and so forth. But unfortunately, we cross someone off that list every year . Well, because, you know, the company unfortunately ceases to exist. After that, well, how should I put it, it was something that was popular 10 years ago, and during that period we established a name for ourselves and brought it to a certain level.

There's no point in doing that now . Right now, for example, if you're going to do it, how about this? For about an hour now, I've been experiencing FOMO (Fear of Missing Out) through AI, I'm so sorry, I got a "do not disturb" message on this phone, but it keeps ringing stubbornly. Anyway, it seems like customers are looking for customers, or maybe not customers, but they're asking what happened to yesterday's, yesterday's, yesterday's, yesterday's, yesterday's presentation.

You worked all day Sunday. What happened with yesterday's presentation, man? I should also mention that if a customer called, I would ask permission and speak to them . Exactly. I would have said, " Hold on, a customer called, sorry," and left. Anyway, what were we saying, joking aside? So, we're talking about AI, you know, starting something in a new field, and since it's come down to the question of what advice I can give to young people, I'm mentioning this topic a bit.

So, in this new field, how should I put it, there's no competition whatsoever. After that, or in the market, it will be clearer that it will attract the attention of companies, but there are no companies that are actually doing it, understanding it, or are involved in it yet. Of course, initially, inevitably, for example, I used to work at Turkcell, and when I left, it took me six years to reach that same level of comfort, so to speak.

Do you understand? If I had just stayed there, happily accepting my raise, I probably wouldn't have had to endure such a torturous life. But of course, there's a different kind of pleasure in that. That thing, for example, I still can't forget. The amount might seem ridiculous right now, but the first invoice we issued and the process of collecting payment is something you have to experience to understand.

So, there are things like that too. No lies. Even now, when something like that happens, like something new, or a big step for the company, like getting a project, we naturally get excited . You need to nourish yourself with those kinds of excitements, those kinds of things . As for what I do in my free time, well, I had a child about 3 years ago . Therefore, after that, we interact with him more.

Since they also have these smaller, sweet phases, we try not to miss them. So what is he doing? We're going to the bouncy castles this weekend. We're having a blast on the trampoline, doing all sorts of things. My wife, bless her, goes to the theater on Sundays. Sometimes I go with them too. You know, like, we're having fun, acting, and all that at the children's theater .

After that, of course, that's how we mostly spend our time now. And then, well, of course, that thing happens. As I said earlier, bad times inevitably require everyone to be on the job . So, of course, the work-life balance is a bit off, inevitably, but as I said, you have to be prepared for that. So you can't do that. It's a bit like that story about the captain being the last to leave when the ship is sinking .

Are you saying "come on, I'm going to sink"? You can't just say "I'm leaving," can you, brother? It's your responsibility, isn't it? Why did you let it fail or put it in such a bad situation? So, it comes out then, or whatever, so of course, it's not really appropriate to talk about these things during difficult times. Apart from that, we had hobbies. My friend even told me yesterday.

Ozan, when was the last time you read a book? I said, to be honest, I haven't been able to read much lately, but I'm still buying books . I keep books on this shelf hoping to read them someday, or rather, I just pick up a book and put it there. I even took a picture of it and said, "Look, this is the last thing I bought," and so on .

We do have things like that, of course. Our hobbies and so on. Oh, and of course, this is a marathon, I mean, at the end of the day, building and growing a company over all these years, and then still being able to sit down and give a presentation on the weekend after all this time, really requires a different kind of energy and effort. There might be some minor tasks here that I mentioned earlier .

This could include spending time with your child , or pursuing various hobbies. I think it actually keeps you feeling pretty energetic. huh. I can say that. Speaking of which, we talked so much about the struggle , about work- life balance... We said to practice Hafon . On the other hand, it's a whole other matter that the European Union says, "We'll give the necessary response on Monday during this war," then shuts down their laptops on Friday and doesn't work over the weekend.

So, let me put it this way, there's another side to the issue. But I definitely think it's important to strike that balance here. That lively, bouncy energy you get from taking your child out might come back to you as a completely different kind of energy at work, or at least I think it will. No, no, I mean, something secret happens . For example, that whole thing seems a bit exaggerated to me.

Here are the stories of the European Union; I just can't help but say that sentence. Because we also have a company in Germany. There were things we experienced and saw there as well . So there, we're trying to get into the market, trying to do something . Really, it's not like that, friend, I mean, it's like a war has broken out. So please, for goodness sake, respond to the war as well.

So I'm going to meet with them on Monday or something, are you crazy ? I actually read something yesterday, someone even wrote about it. Now that bombs are falling on Dubai, everything is trying to get out of Dubai and so on. The Lufthansa plane has arrived. The plane couldn't take off fully loaded. From where? Because it was midnight when it was supposed to land, Frankfurt airport didn't give the plane permission to take off due to a lack of staff at midnight, and the plane couldn't take off.

People are trapped there . 500 or 400 German citizens couldn't leave the country? There was talk about him yesterday . The news is circulating. Oh, look, there were two planes at Munich Airport the other day, weren't there? There has been a delay. The people who were stuck inside the plane were waiting for staff to arrive in the morning . Seriously, this is just too much . Okay, work-life balance is important, but what about fundamental human rights?

Yes. The Germans seem to represent one extreme in that regard right now . Some have wives , some have children. What does it mean to leave people behind on a plane? For example, once I was on a plane for 6 hours for another reason; we couldn't land because the plane had to land in another country. They wouldn't let us off the plane because nobody had a visa or anything like that.

It's a very funny story, but hopefully we'll talk about that another time . For example, I know that spending six hours on a plane is a terrible thing. May God never let anyone experience such a thing. That's why, I think, the uncertainty at home after that really wears a person down . Many things come to mind, but the biggest thing, for example, is that I saw a Pegasus plane, a Turkish plane.

The fact that Turkish people are not allowed to smoke is apparently a major source of tension. I saw him, for example, inside the plane . The joke was, of course, that people were going to suddenly start killing each other. I saw some people on the plane with shaky hands and stuff. So, what I mean is, at the end of the day, okay, maybe do n't work day and night, like the night between Saturday evening and Sunday, for example.

These are, of course, extreme things. For example, I try to be as involved as possible in the company, but now there's a special situation, for instance, this is an act of self-sacrifice. It's wrong to interpret this in so much detail. You could also interpret it as, "Wow, what a disgusting boss, he made his employee give a presentation on Sunday evening ." Meanwhile, I'm not saying anything to him.

That's just an opinion. May God bless you. You showed tremendous dedication. Thanks to you, we got this project too . Of course, that's a point of view. Is it ok? Of course, the choice is yours, but depending on what you choose, things like whether to start a company, become an entrepreneur, or whatever else comes up immediately. We shouldn't ignore them either . I completely agree. huh. And we're coming to the end of this lighthearted time.

Maybe we can collect a small amount. Well said, poet. So we discussed quite a few things. I could start spontaneously again, begin with Netflix, and then move on to the startup world of the last 10 years, and finally have the last word. Do you have any final comments you'd like to add, any advice you'd like to give to those starting a business? We can actually wrap things up and close it down afterwards.

Why? What happened, Barış? Are you bored? No, I'm not bored, but we're nearing the end of time . No, there's a focus period for that. No, no. I said that for that reason. So, you get all worked up about this island and wonder if you want to work there? Because we're very careful not to work or anything like that on weekends. Suddenly, it's like we'll be working until late in the evenings and so on .

And me... thank you very much to Ozan, by the way. It was a nice conversation. I think next time we could touch on more... softer, and... related topics I captured some great moments there too. For example, we'd like to hear the continuation of the airplane story. For example, we could talk about things other than Netflix, and so on. It can be fun. And let's get the promise of the next one, or rather, the promise of the next one, right now.

Talking helps me to de-stress too. That's good. You're absolutely right . Of course, that's exactly why we're gathering here and all that. It's great. Unfortunately, we're in the atmosphere. Especially right now, there's so much to think about and so much to do . He'll talk, won't he? I'm sure they were people, I mean things. Well, people in the industry or outside of the industry are probably thinking, talking about, or wondering about similar things.

So, whenever you want, I'll gladly come. Honestly, that would be great for us too. Thank you very much. Well, finally, as a closing, regarding the previous topic, I don't really have anything to say. So, there's nothing I'd like to add. As you know, we 've been talking about the same topics constantly lately. More than what you do , loving what you do is the best service to your country; we work with this principle in mind.

Alternatively, you can work for a corporate company, have a career in the same place for 10 years, or you can start your own startup and become a multi-million dollar unicorn. So, essentially, they're all part of a purpose in the flow of life. How do you evaluate that purpose ? So, since we unfortunately experience these precious, valuable moments outside of work, we're trying to combine work with this work experience, but also to separate them with a slightly sharp line, as if that's the best approach .

Of course, sacrifices, of course working until dawn – these are all things that can be remembered fondly in the future . But the point is that it's being taken to extremes, as we see people sharing their WhatsApp conversations on LinkedIn and saying things like, "Oh my God, my boss harassed me," or "My boss never fired me, he always kept me working," and so on . So, that balance of communication, that thing, whatever it takes, is, in our opinion—and speaking for Barış—the most important thing.

Barış, are you here? There's really nothing extra, nothing much to say, that would connect us so strongly with this topic . I should mention, by the way, sorry, I had a bit of a connection problem in the last 3 minutes or so . I had a little trouble catching it . Now that I'm feeling this way, let me say a couple of words too. I witness those events too.

You know, on LinkedIn, it's like, "this one insulted that one," and "that one insulted this one." Then there's also a crowd that immediately clicks "like," thinking, "Oh my God, let's lynch them," and so on. My dear contact, you're right, blah blah . After that, there's the issue of communication and sincerity. I'm not saying, by the way, that all employees are like this or all employers are like that; putting them into a label is wrong.

Everything has its good sides and its bad sides. Is it ok ? Now I've been on both sides. After that, I became both an employee and an employer, and I continue to be one . But it was like, I wish I wasn't like that. Do you understand? So we've overcome many things during these difficult times. There are also decisions, and you have to consider this: the employer, well, excuse me, isn't someone born a boss, or employers aren't born that way.

Is it ok ? So you learn, and that person learns, or whoever it is, they learn too. It's the first time he's been in that position too. For example, right now we have a crisis that has been going on for the last 7 years and never seems to end. Whenever you ask anyone in the industry, they all say there's a crisis. Yes. For example, I ask people from the past, like those who experienced the never- ending crises of the 90s, and even they say, " People who lived through the 90s, honestly, things weren't like this back then ."

There are many reasons why we'll discuss those in another conversation . Therefore, the situation we are currently in is unprecedented for us, either never before experienced in the world or, at least, never before experienced in Türkiye . Now we are learning too, and inevitably we are making mistakes as well. So there's nothing to be done about it . If you ask me, sincerity is important. Because, you know, I'm into things like, I enjoy doing projects and things like that, so I do these kinds of things.

Seconds, no one gets rich just because they develop mobile applications, especially corporate firms do. It's not like that, and there's no example of Unikon in the world. I do this work with that awareness; I never had such a ridiculous dream, thank God. For example, a lot of people have come and gone from our company; at one point we even had 130 people, and now it's around 65-70.

I looked at something else recently, and I'm going to advertise again, but we use IKA because I like it, so I'll mention its name. I checked, how much circulation there has been, I mean, over 400 people have come and gone. Many of them still wish me a happy holiday and ask how I am on Instagram. It's been 34 years since they separated, the writer says and so on.

These things happen out of sincerity, I suppose. We didn't exactly go around hugging and kissing everyone, did we? There were times when we got angry . Yes. There were times when we got tense. After that, we also experienced some difficult situations . But we've always tried to be transparent. This is the best we could do, and people saw that. So, let me get back to that, when I ask if anyone is available, and people jump at the chance saying "I'll do it," then I think we've done something right, hopefully we've done it correctly, and we'll continue to do so.

Besides, there's really nothing else to do. But I'm also against that lynching culture, by the way . So, as soon as I see something like that, I'm against it, you know. Let's say something happened at a company in Istanbul . You're liking it from Ankara . How do you know what happened that you immediately took sides, man? Or do you understand what I mean? Hold on, son, maybe they'll resolve this in court, maybe both sides are playing games, maybe they're trying to get engagement on LinkedIn, what's it to you ?

So what's going on? Immediately saying "that's absolutely right" is completely accurate. Suddenly, it seems people are enjoying that attack . I have that base. Yes. Yes. Unfortunately, that's something that exists in our Turkish people . But then, well, nothing really comes of it. After that, and often, I also heard the whole thing, by the way. I've heard of people who took complete screenshots and then immediately sued everyone, saying things like, "They insulted me," etc. Of course, what he wrote is a crime.

Meanwhile, most people are missing something. Do you understand? He's losing control of the situation, you know. Why are you immediately commenting on something you know nothing about, man? Anyway. Exactly. So, that's a different side of the coin, but as you said, I think we should be careful with our social media posts too, and let that be the message of the day. We honestly don't pay any attention to the silect at all.

So we're giving everyone a hard time in select. Well, things like internal company matters and external company matters. They're not even outside the company, but when you write something on social media, and you go too far, then it leads to other things, of course. huh. That's why communication is so valuable. When you write "employer," the guy might be the most disgusting person in the world, but why are you insulting him?

Personal insult, exactly. I'm trying to mention those places, I think it's as possible to get there. What's it to you? Something happened at a company in Izmir . What's it to you? What's it to you? You know what's going on, yet you're jumping to conclusions right away. Anyway, look where we've ended up, the topics have gone from one extreme to another, just like always. These topics will never end, even if the most absurd things are discussed; they always end because they're always connected to people.

Thank you so much for your time. Oh my God, please forgive me . Honestly, it's late. If you do it occasionally, I'll do it whenever I have time. I'll come. Exactly. We would be very happy. Exactly. I promise I'll tell you the airplane story. He, he, he, he... I'm curious about him, we need to have a completely separate session. I wonder what happened. Let's work on it hour by hour.

It's already 6 hours. Exactly. Well said! Have a great week! Take very good care of yourself. Thank you very much, you too. See you soon. See you later. Thank you so much to everyone watching and listening, see you soon .