Fırat Berber on discovery, rejection and telling people not to buy

Greetings everyone. I think we're on episode 11 of our podcast, but I'm not sure, I could be wrong. There are a few episodes that got lost in the shuffle. So, our guest this week is Fırat Berber. Hi Firat. Greetings, Barış. Hi. Well, if you'd like, you can introduce yourself very briefly like this. Of course. Let me introduce you. Well, I was born in Antakya. Well, we started with a very broad past for most of my life.

You went into a very localized perspective, by the way. I spent most of my time, usually a large portion, in Ankara. but for the last 8 years I've lived abroad, partly in Barcelona and partly in Sweden. I studied international relations at METU in Ankara . I usually choose international relations quite unconsciously, simply because I like the name. Well, I generally dreamed of living abroad, and I chose this place because I thought it would be a place where I could put that dream into practice.

But on the other hand, since my father was a salesman, there was a company called Seray in the past that was a rival in the future. I don't know if you know this. I don't remember exactly, but it didn't seem unfamiliar . It's like a guy lying on a cloud selling things like armchairs, with a Tab Man logo and an 'e'. Exactly. That's an amazing logo, by the way.

Exactly. Now, when my father was working there, I usually just listened to him. my father thought you were going to say "that man," you know, that would be nice . He and my father call him the man in the clouds . I already had an interest in general sales from that point on. While I was studying, I always wanted to work in a sales field later on, in international import, export, or commercial areas.

Well, before I even finished school, during my last year at METU (Middle East Technical University), I started working at a startup in a technology park. So, on the one hand, it's my senior year, midterms, the anxiety of finishing school, and on the other hand, the excitement of starting my career... it was quite an exciting period. But the sale was quite challenging for me at the beginning. So, some people just do sales with natural talent.

Generally speaking, they start with a good career, just like they started. It was never like that for me. It was a pretty difficult period. In fact, shortly afterward, something happened. Our company isn't doing very well. They told me they were doing Cashbn and then, "You're actually a very skilled colleague, but maybe you should try something else instead of sales," and that's exactly how they fired me. After that, I got a little competitive.

I said, I don't want others to... well, to bury me . I'll decide for myself what I want to be. While wondering how to do this, I started doing a lot of reading and studying because there's really an art to sales. There's also the science aspect. The artistic side of things... well, it's something you learn gradually and requires experience. Well, I enrolled here to start learning the science side of things.

Let me start with a short introduction. We'll continue with it then . So, I guess if those people there had told you you were very good, you probably would have just been an average salesperson. Really? That ambition, it probably looks like this in my mind... You're walking alone in the rain like that, and you're thinking, "I'll show them," and then... well, you start back off . At first you're devastated because when you get your first job and someone comes to you with a message saying you can't do this job, you think, this was my career.

This is my career goal. I've wanted this since I was little, and I guess it's not going to happen. Because someone who knows about this told me it wouldn't work. But after I got over that discouragement, it started to give me some energy and transformed into a slight anger, but an anger that gave me energy. And, as you said, it turned into something... something. So, at the next company, guys, for example, while my colleagues generally come in at 9:00 and leave at 5, I come in at 8:00 and stay until 6 or 7 in the evening, sometimes even late at night, sitting with the CEO, Berkay abi, and we even have pizza nights and stuff like that when there are company events.

I joined Obsij, by the way, at the next one . You moved from there to Obsij. Exactly. that's great. I had a friend named Daniel who I worked with at my previous company . o obsij'e had passed. he said, Obsiji is quite beautiful. It's a startup located in Teknent, a technology hub also at METU (Middle East Technical University). "Come join us," he said. The interviews went well too .

That place also had a nice side to it . Well, some companies really have a very broad vision and they value people. I passed the interviews . They told me... They asked what the expected salary was. At that time, with all the money in the currency, I said my expectation was 3,000 TL. Then he said, "Come, we had thought of 4,000 for you ." They started with 4,000, and I wondered if they would accept 3,000.

Do I want it a little higher? Well, I said that because I have a year of experience, and... huh . And then I realized something. So, companies that truly value their employees, pay them what they deserve, and have expectations in return, are doing a good job. Because the employees are actually paying back that extra 1,000, maybe 5,000, 10,000, or even 50,000 per month. yes. Yes. Well, with that feeling of something he deserved.

Then you actually have an advantage in a way. So, you got involved in that field culture quite early on . Well, actually, experiencing that side of things, making that sale, I think it's nice. Because we actually met in Kriterio. Kritoda, is that your address after Oxygen, or exactly? Exactly. Are there other things involved? So, seeing such a small structure and then being able to see a much larger one has been quite an advantage, I think.

So, would you like to share your favorite story from Opsined, or maybe the biggest or your favorite sales story? Do you remember? Something really nice happened. Another event happened there that broadened my horizons. I had a meeting with Swiss.com, which was a pretty large company back then, and my job at the time was to schedule meetings with brands. Back then, I had meetings with many high-level executives who were generally VPs globally, dealing with data management and combining DevOps .

Well, first of all, I also held the first meeting. Then we went into a meeting with Berkay abi. I'm extremely excited because, well, it's a fantastic, perfect fit. It will be a very good project. The brand is excited, and we are excited. Brother Berkay has arrived. But then something happens. As a business developer, or SDR (Software Development Manager), if you don't have very deep technical knowledge, you can't always make the connection between the brand's needs and what your solution provides.

There's something called Happy Ear. You're very happy with what you're hearing, but you're not doing that discovery part quite right. Anyway, our friend Berkay arrived and so we started the meeting. I gave a general summary. Well, 15 minutes have passed. Brother Berkay is asking questions. We're not discussing anything related to the option. about 20 minutes have passed. Berkay abi said this. What you're suggesting might actually allow you to use the server option, but I wouldn't recommend going ahead with that.

Because, he said, he mentioned a few improvements that needed to be made, and... well, the brand thanked everyone and ended the meeting, and while I was looking at the screen wondering what had happened, what had just happened, well, because in a startup, actually, all the brands, you know, were growing so fast, OBSI... over 1000 brands were using it. There is significant growth. Many large companies, from Starbucks onwards, were using it.

But, Berkay abi directly said that he wouldn't recommend Opsini, which we consider a very important brand. He ended the meeting by thanking me, and that's when I understood something. Well, firstly, actually, when you don't do Discovery right, when you bring in the wrong brands and then look at the turnaround six months or a year later, that's not a very good thing. It could even backfire. And secondly, I understood back then that I still had a long way to go, a lot of road ahead .

That's funny to me, and yes. And I think another thing that sounds good is this: For example, we even announced it today, I think. We are currently working with a particular brand. Monster Notebook. this is Monster Notebook, you probably know it. Well, that's what happened with them in the first meeting as well. We 've entered the meeting and we're talking. Technically, they're a very highly skilled team, etc. At the point in the meeting, I said something like, "I do n't think you need Hardal Hardal right now."

So, what Hardal is offering right now... it's not exactly going to blow you away. Well, maybe it would provide a small benefit, and we said there was no need to go through all that effort, and then maybe 6 or 7 months later, when the product had improved and reached a better point, we came across it again. This time we introduced a new, advanced product, which I think was a complete and perhaps one of the fastest e-sales processes we've ever had.

When you're actually making accurate discoveries and all that, it becomes incredibly valuable . I realized this the moment we started working together . Well, I've supported many different startups, and I've mostly, almost never, done long-term support . I had only supported one other startup in the past period. Well, that was one of Obsijan's spin-offs. His name is Resmo. It was also sold through Acquisition. Well, I actually noticed the "fit" part here while we were together.

So, generally speaking, with Berkay and Barış as well, instead of being driven by a sales mentality—like trying to sell a product or brand no matter what—they're more focused on how they can help the customer. For me and the client, the perspective generally becomes something like this in the meetings Berkay holds . These meetings increase people's general knowledge, both in the technical field and in relation to pricing in this field .

I think the vision here is actually very valuable. Because many companies, generally speaking, have a commission, something called commission bread, for salespeople. Do everything you can to get that commission. You've probably seen Wolf of Wall Street. Any means are justified. Let's deceive the customer and sell the product no matter what. That's the point where you say "med spen". Exactly. Exactly. So, he has this mentality that, whatever method I use to sell it, if I've made the sale, then I've done my job .

I was never involved in that... thing. The example I gave of Berkay was one of the things that broadened my horizons. I've always seen it in you too. So, really, in the master's example, I 've seen it in different examples. I'm not sure if it's right to say his name right now . In some meetings, we might have said that perhaps the right Hardal or the right brand wasn't right at that moment, but when the time came, we made those improvements.

When you say you'd like to reunite, that brand already has that trust in you. Even back in the Crito era, you know, many brands weren't getting enough traffic right now. We can open the criteria. But instead of focusing on retargeting, you need to invest in acquiring new customers and generating new traffic . So when I said, "You can start with these advertising models from these brands," this is what happened.

Again, you know, some brands use retargeting technology, and if it's not right, then... I was saying that, and I realized something. Sometimes when you say you wouldn't recommend something to people, but then you push them, they come even more. No, we want to, we want to do it. So when you try to sell something, you're pushing people away. But when you're in the role of a consultant, and a consultant who inspires confidence, people want to work with you.

I've noticed that in general . Definitely. Selling software there is a whole different experience, I guess. So when I buy something tangible, it has a user manual, a box, and so on . I can open it and do research before buying. So it's more of a tangible thing than just a fast-moving consumer good . But when you're selling software, especially as a buyer, both egos and financial considerations can come into play.

Because you are there, as the buyer, representing a company. That is, when viewed from the buyer's perspective. From the seller's point of view, going in and saying, "Oh my God, please buy this!" can seem a bit absurd. That's why I give that example so often . Well, there was a prank show like that years ago. So, Çetin became a farmer. It's a very, very cringeworthy program. Well, I guess after the pandemic, Mr. Çetin started a series where he publishes his own jokes and things like that.

This elderly gentleman, you know, when it comes to jokes, he usually plays pranks on people passing by on the street and so on . there was this one guy who set up a stall at the bus station in the mid-90s and he had these empty glass seal things. There are spray bottles like that, but they're empty. And he wrote something on top of it. One says Paris, the other says New York .

For example, one of them says Trabzon and so on. and that's what attracted me so much . Well, that's a good thing. Meanwhile, Barış, can you come in? I don't know what he's doing, but peace has been made. I was just thinking about this for a moment. I think its battery is probably dead. he might be trying to enter from about 10 different places. Vasil, that's what I learned on that program .

So really, there's nothing that can't be sold. So, he sells it so well; for example, he says it's just empty air, and he says, " When you spray this, the air of Trabzon will come into your home." "Where are you from, brother?" he asks. For example, I'm from Balıkesir. Okay, fine, I'll give you Çanakkale. He says he has the air of Çanakkale. That's how he gives it.

People are picking it up, sniffing it and all that. So there, you really feel the sales drive deep in your bones. Because you can see where people are disappointed, why they are inclined to buy something, for example, after a certain point, people start crowding in front of that stall, and it sparks curiosity. So you can really see all the links in the chain of marketing, sales, and business in that video.

That's what came to my mind . I loved him very much. That's what made me love sales, and that's what makes persuading people in sales so exciting, that adrenaline rush, that's the starting point. Okay, welcome. I'll send you this sometime. Yes, I apologize. Meanwhile, when it comes to things related to sales, you know, that feeling of sales down to the point of appreciation, let me pause for a moment .

For example, before Hardal, I thought I was already doing e-commerce. Because I was actually responsible for growth and business development at the Analytics agency. But then I realized something. So I actually realize this when I get to Hardal. I was just receiving a request and I was forwarding that request, and for me, that was a "yes." I was able to make sales. And now, looking back, it seems like it wasn't that great of a sale after all.

I mean, I don't know about that. Does Fırat have another name ? You know, just going out and selling to the customers who come in . Oh yes. So, in my opinion, that inbound sale wasn't a sale at all. It's something completely different . Because the guy is already getting 20-30% okay, and you're trying to push him to 100% . On the other hand, our inbound sales here are very, very low.

So we went in with incredibly low inbound sales. Now, much more is coming from somewhere, and I think inbound sales are actually very easy. You know, reaching out to outbound people and saying, "No, I'm not interested, we don't want to right now, don't write to me again, don't call me," and so on. it really demotivated me at first . That's when my respect for such salespeople increased even more, and I saw a lot of that in Fırat as well.

So Berkay, you remember, right? For example, we initially go into a meeting like this . The meeting is going badly for us . We are Berkay Jiz. Brother, what kind of reaction is this? Would one human being treat another like that ? It's as if we came here and did something, trying to explain the product. We're angry, like, "Is this how you behave?" and we're in the mood of "Let's not deal with this brand again ."

Fırat said, "Well, no, I don't think it went badly." If we look at these things, we've actually found a point that might interest them. He kept saying things like, " Let's meet again," and I just never understood that mindset. Then, little by little, that salesperson's, I don't know, armor, or whatever you want to call it, immunity to being affected, started to work. I think that's a very respectable quality, too.

So, it's about being able to cope with ghosting or rejection. Fatın, I don't know, I'm sure there will be some additions here . That's one of the reasons why sales is such a difficult field in the first place . you encounter rejection every single day. People are rejecting you. So you wanted to schedule a meeting and you did some really good research . You approach a brand with great hypotheses, and they might reject you without showing any interest or even giving you a response .

Sometimes this happened more often in the past . Well, you might encounter harsh language. It can also come up in situations you don't think you deserve . This actually helps you become more skilled in social interactions in daily life, and it also helps you gain the ability to negotiate, to finish a task if you want to . Because you realize this. Whether you're managing a project or starting a business with your spouse to try and acquire a new skill.

If you want to accomplish something, you need to put in much more effort than you think . What should happen? Reminders, writing down what you want to do, planning, project management, and so on. The benefit of sales here is being able to manage these things much better . On the one hand, in meetings, or especially in these code snippets, it happens very often. When you called the client, you hadn't scheduled a meeting or set a time.

Even if you think it would be good for the customer, that customer isn't waiting for it. That arm isn't waiting for you, and it can be very uncomfortable. Imagine you are engaged in a job. Just when you've fully focused your attention. On the one hand, someone calls and... tries to explain a software to you . Even though this is really important to you, there's a certain thing to consider there.

There is resistance. For example, when we go to a store, let's say we want to buy a blue striped shirt. Instead of searching for this blue-striped shirt yourself, it's much faster to tell the store clerk there . But we never do that, do we? So the staff member comes and says, "No, I don't need your support, thank you ." We're just saying we'll take a look. It's actually a reflex.

So, knowing that reflex exists, being able to offer support from a distance, and starting the work knowing that is very important. We also reap the rewards in sales after a certain period . Why is that reflex present in this particular area ? So, is that something, something stemming from past experiences? I just thought about that reflex you mentioned. Well, I have a lot of them too, and it doesn't make any sense .

I, on the other hand, have absolutely none. Why don't you want it, for example, when a sales representative comes by? I, on the contrary, wander around aimlessly, hoping someone will pay attention to me. It's probably something like inbound, inbound, you know, think of it like that . You're filling out a form on an inbound website, for web development, for software, but you don't get any emails or anything like that.

Think of it like you get a message saying, "Okay, meeting settings," or something similar. I'm waiting there, honestly, for someone to pay attention. That reflex isn't very common in general. You usually don't have that kind of reflex, mostly people... I mean, people don't like that feeling. People generally don't like the feeling that something is being sold to them, that they are being sold something. Berkay, I don't know if you have this.

Well, that's actually a very good point, I was going to ask you something similar. I was going to ask a question not about sales, like "what was the last thing you sold?", but rather, "what was the last thing you were convinced to do?", for example. Because when you buy something you don't really need, doesn't it create a certain internal feeling? Wow, that guy actually convinced me. So it's like, I was never going to buy something like this.

Has anything like this ever happened to you ? So, is there anything you've been convinced of ? Because maybe we need to break that mindset, that it's not a bad thing. I think there's already a shift, you know, from salesperson to sales consultant, it's a bit of a title change. Well, I think to break this a bit, there's a difference between someone trying to persuade you by directly selling something to you, and someone actually giving you advice.

I honestly don't like it when someone tries to force-sell something like that on me . So, like... Yes, it has a quota. He's trying to sell it to me, and I get into a mindset of "he's trying to sell Tekamo, but I don't want to buy it," but when it's someone with a salesperson title who's genuinely trying to make my life easier or because they think it would be suitable for me, I'm very easy-going.

I actually like it . Let's hear opinions, let's discuss whatever the topic is. For example, I was going to buy a frying pan recently. I mean, how complicated can a frying pan be? There was a very good sales consultant, and together with him, we chose and bought the pan that was truly ideal for me . For me, for example, this was an incredible experience. Well, I guess I was finally convinced by a frying pan.

Did you get it? What are you convinced of? I bought. I'll take it, I'll take it . I use it. Look. Yes. Because I didn't feel like that at all . Do you understand? This guy probably gets a lot of commission from just one, maybe even one, frying pan, and he's pushing it on everyone. That wasn't the case. The man asked a lot of questions. He asked what kind of food she made.

So, multiple pans or just one pan? I said I wanted a frying pan. I want something multifunctional that I can put in a machine and so on. We understood exactly what I wanted. He said "Click". I bought this without even looking at your condition, or anything like that. So, I think the most critical point there is how the approach is taken. Exactly. Fran, do you have one?

I have one too. We're talking about everyday life . Software development is usually a bit more complex and difficult, but anyway, nobody hires software developers. Hey you, is there any software you've recently acquired, for example, the latest one? So, besides dust, what else, for example? Well, there are tons of software options. I can give the example of Sales Navigator. We bought it for the company. and that Sales Navigator is, let's say, an add-on package for LinkedIn.

He used those lines and didn't claim to mean that there, but let me tell you, I even shared a LinkedIn post about it. I'll do that in an additional way as well. In fact, we had a really good connection thanks to the child's picture. We went out for drinks together at another time, and he did his job so professionally, in just a few steps, I even shared a LinkedIn post about how he did it right .

Well, the general example that came to my mind was this . there's something called El Gigenten here, similar to Teknosa, or Elgiganten in Sweden . there's a brand. I went there to buy a television, but there are 1000 different models of televisions. There are OLED options, there aren't, so there are many different models and features. Well, when I go in there, I'll do a bit of research beforehand .

But the questions the sales representative there asked me were different, for example, "What time does the sun come into your house?" I was wondering why he asked this question, and for example, when the evening sun hits the television, if it were there, it could reflect too much light. The other... I forgot the other name. It doesn't reflect that much in other technologies. He went and suggested a different television to me, and I'm very happy with that television now, and he asked me many different things like that.

How long do you want the TV to last, and what's your budget? for example, that guy is still on my mind. Well, maybe that kid can achieve much greater things. Because I really thought he was doing a good job. If only you had taken the mentors immediately. Honestly, it's possible, and I think some great projects are emerging there. Again, Fırat, we want to congratulate you. By the way, for those who don't know, Fırat Ahardal also provides growth consulting services.

He is our main person responsible for sales and growth, our main leader, you could say. Palace Pandras, the business we entered into... let's just say it's a software sales business, to put it simply . Well, thanks to this kind of mentoring and guidance, we're taking good steps, logical steps. How much further can we take it? Well, we're still pursuing that a bit, to be honest. lastly, before we get to our next myth, before we do anything else, I'm very happy and pleased that we had you as a guest, at least .

So, we can comfortably end the podcast . Because, well, we've been giving you this kind of shot for quite a while now, since the very first episode . "So, Fırat said this, Fırat said that," and so on. so, that's why it turned out well in this context . In fact, I think we should make this a two-party thing, and of course, of course . There's still much to talk about.

There are definitely funnier memories and such . stands for sale or selling. I think this is a good topic. finally, for Barış to say his last words, even the one on the left, I don't know if I can still crop this in the edit ? Because there's another peace attempting to enter through a mobile phone . Oh, I also appear to be alone. Interesting. Unfortunately, my internet is bad today at this time of day.

I don't know why that happened. Look, you need internet right now . So, when you're walking down the street, a Spaniard should be selling you something like, "Hey, wait a second, how many megabits of internet are you using?" Did I explain it clearly? Or maybe this is the real sale, in my opinion. Because I wasn't expecting it; it had to come suddenly . Exactly. That's absolutely right.

So, it should tell me what I need for me, or even better, something like, "You think I need internet, but actually no," or something like that. Honestly, well done to both of you! I think the second round of the third round will definitely turn around. That was a good topic. We took a short trip down memory lane. Well, I'll say goodbye then . See you later. See you later.

Goodbye. Bye bye. Yeah.